Dr Kunwar Singh: On Meeting Gandhi and Politics in Australia
I am currently writing my book and going through a part of my life when I was on community radio. I am noting meaningful interviews. I have just typed the transcript of my meeting with Dr. Kunwar Singh. We actually met by chance (if there is such a thing) at Gareth Evans lecture in Australia in 2006. What he says in this interview is relevant today. More than ever.
It is interesting timing as lately I am hearing a few people saying they lost faith in Gandhi or repeating negative reflections. I have to say I’ve been surprised. I studied Gandhi and he was truly a selfless person. If people just did a little of what he did we would be living in a far different world.
Dr. Singh is another interesting person who has extensive qualifications in international relations, law and diplomacy. He has looked at the Australian political system and contrasted it with others. I found his observations very interesting. His experience of Gandhi was truly inspiring.
NB: my questions ( ) and where I couldn’t hear what was said I have …
Here is the transcript of the talk we had that was impromptu…
Interview with Dr Kunwar Singh – On Gandhi and Politics in Australia and Generally
(I am standing here with an interesting gentleman who says he is 77 years old and has met Gandhi)
KS: I have written the book for the United Nations for whom I was working before as an adviser in Tourist Development for member countries especially African countries and the Cayman Islands plus numerous other reports for different organisations from the British Commonwealth Secretary, call it British make it clear when you compare it to other Commonwealths … Australian Commonwealth. Before that I was the Director of Tourism then came to Australia some 18 years ago love this place, even today I feel it is the best place in the world
(Why?)
KS: People are relaxed not tense compared to any other society. There is a lot of talk here about racism but I find racism is comparatively much less here than other countries of the world not only western countries but other countries, I would not single out as that can be very controversial sometimes for other countries.
(So why do you think Australians aren’t particularly racist?)
KS: I don’t think in law or in practice… except for different cultural groups, under this system which is like something like Canada live in a system which is a mosaic rather than a melting pot. In a mosaic it is inevitable that there are groups who will continue to cling from sometime to their past cultural foundation, but that does not make it racism to me, it becomes racism when you discriminate against other people, you hate them and you try to glorify yourself at the cost of others.
(So perhaps that is power there where you are trying to feel more powerful over someone else by saying something that makes that person feel less than you – do you think that?)
yes I think so.
(Leads me to politics you have been in politics can you talk about your background in politics?)
KS: When I came to Australia I was teaching political science and international affairs in the first Institute of Technology in India started by the Government of Indian The Indian Institute of Technology it has 8 institutes spread over different parts of the country, it is modelled after the RMIT in the United States I was teaching international affairs. My Bachelor’s degree included History and Political Science, Masters was in Diplomacy and International affairs and I was a qualified lawyer in India before I joined the Government and became the Director of Tourism. So political science has been a very interesting subject for me anywhere in the world. Constitutional law I studied in Australia in the Melbourne University… So when I came here inevitably I was comparing what was happening in the political system of Australia trying to learn and find out. Firstly it was very confusing because the names Liberal Party, National Party and the Labour Party later slowly I found out were hardly were misnomers. The liberal party was hardly liberal it was conservative , the National Party was more a party for the villages and the rural than a real national party. The Labour Party was patterned after the British Labor party and Labor parties in other countries which are leftist and look after the common man, labour party in Australia slightly different, it is almost completely if not monopolised largely influenced by the unions that makes a big difference. When I was invited by a newly formed political party called the Unity Party to contest the election. I didn’t want to be in active politics I am a apolitical man, I am a student rather than a practitioner. Politics in Australia is considered a game a profession, you use media to glorify yourself or your group. Yesterday he pointed out in his forceful talk at Melbourne Uni. My own traditional politics you lead society by giving an example, you are in politics for a cause not for yourself not to become a prime minister or minister or to gain a particularly advantage.
So the tradition in my life was the politics of Gandhi and Nehru who went to jail, who were totally nonviolent and taught me to stand for a cause and work for a cause. One of the phrases that Nehru used in his book … was that ‘we are little men working for the great cause, if the cause of great something of greatness falls upon us too’. We are not great we are nobody actually, it is the cause that makes us big or a small or great. So if you simply say I am here for myself for a job, like one person I will not name here, he lost the election twice. Here I am asking for a job from you. This totally completely different from what I was trained to hear from leaders of a nation. Who would never say I want a job for you. They would say what can I do for you? how can I serve your interests. This is the way I think you should go ahead, please guide me and tell me. I offer you, I support you, your suffering is my suffering, that is what Gandhi said. I found it totally missing in Australian political life or in the social life, everybody seems to be for themselves. It is better than America I’ve been many times. I have studied American history, culture, constitution, geography, political systems where individualism along with capitalism has taken its very high stride. It is the media that rules the American society in thinking today. Very few people, even intellectuals, are left to think for themselves freely. We are all conditioned in a way in life, we are more conditioned by the media that is bombarding your mind all the time with certain messages which are not necessarily healthy for the whole human society. Healthy for certain groups only. So therefore this is something lacking here. When I was asked I said I will stand for the election. I knew I would not win. My freemason friends told you will not win, my friends told me I would not win, the Indian community because of my Indian background said an Indian can never win or never get votes. As I said listen as I said in my election article published in the Leader and other places, I said Tagore and Gandhi thought even if you are alone one person, start walking. It is a message that gathers people around you. It is not you it is your message. So I started walking. The constituency that is a division of Holt, one morning I went to Dandenong talked to a few persons, men and women, I found the crowd started growing, that was a great experience for me. The crowd started growing, I started walking, became bigger and bigger became a procession. That was very encouraging. What happened – I had never asked the Indian community to help me in the election nor for money or for anything. Who were the people helping me Polish, Hungarian, Chinese, Indians, Irish, French all nationalities and my freemason brothers and Sri Lankans, it was very encouraging. I could not win I did not win and have no regrets.
(Why running with Unity party what was your goal?)
To oppose Pauline Hansen’s party One Nation which in my opinion was poisoning Australian society and taking it backwards by recycling racism which was almost dead. When I came here I thought this country was much better than England, much better than America, much better than most countries in the world even from the point of view of racism it is truly multicultural if someone tries to take it backward it is damaging Australia. I opposed it and that is why, they asked me to carry this message onwards, I stood for the election.
(Gandhi said his life is his message, now you are one of the few people alive today who have seen him, can you recount the experience when you met Gandhi, can you describe a bit about him and his presence)
KS: 1946 and 1947 I was studying at intermediate just below graduate level. …I had met most of the leaders at the time and was with the Students Congress and I was a follower of Gandhi. I walked in 1942 movement for the freedom of India as a student leader.
(So you were walking with Gandhi?)
KS: Not at that time but walked with him later he came to my home town in the Mussoorie in the Himalayas and the place was called Silverton it was a valley surrounded by beautiful mountains and trees, he used to hold his prayer meetings there. Gandhi would hold prayer meetings in the evening which were attended by record crowds, he was a great inspiration. I knew most of the leaders I had met them Nehru, …Preshad … Patel all of them. So I went to his meetings. I was young and rather good looking and impressive sort of student leader, everywhere I got a seat. So what happened – I go to the meeting there were thousand and thousand of people there so I walk straight to the rostrum where Gandhi was sitting there were two or four girls that walk with him …. He would walk with both of them on either side … when I went there and he invited me and I sat with him and heard him. His voice (pause) came out of his heart. (I can see you’ve got tears in your eyes you really felt it). It inspired you. It moved you. It shook you. You felt like opening your heart before him. He was the man, totally guileless who had his intelligence, judgement totally without pollution, a very pure heart in tune with god, completely. He believed in god. I have believed in god as inspiration … If you believe in god it will make you very strong it will give you inspiration in life. You will never feel … depression the illness of western society today. So I spent some moments with Gandhi walked with him sat with him and heard his voice.
KS: You ask me what happened. In 1947 when India was free, I was in the place I was born, I was a follower of Gandhi… I was sleeping in my room, about 4 o’clock I saw a dream that somebody had shot Mahatma Gandhi I woke up and my younger brother was sleeping with me, he was opposed to me in politics he belong to the Hindu RS organisation so I told him, he loved Gandhi also, he said it couldn’t happen. I started crying and couldn’t stop for the whole day, my mother and father consoled me.
(I can see you are still feeling that was that a year before?)
No it was a week before. It was a premonition it was clairvoyance. I am a bit of a clairvoyant I can see things. So After a week I saw he was really shot dead. The news was announced of Gandhi’s death. I came out of my house into the street the whole city was empty was Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, men and women all walking with tears in their eyes.
(Must have been incredible time?)
Unforgettable. There are many unforgettable moments in life that I will put in my book now which involve events all over the world ….that was a day of Gandhi and it hurt me tremendously. Since you asked me about Gandhi specifically that is what I can tell you.
(I think too what that highlights in contrast to the politics here in Australia and that you couldn’t trust people and what you have described is what a leader really is, not just a person who is an elected person pursuing a career but actually a leader who has heart and is of service to the community. Perhaps that is what we are now seeking here in Australia perhaps a shift in the way that we are here to lead).
KS: Let me comment, my training is that this world is full of vices, world full of difficulties, this world is full of dishonest people, but should you run away from it, should you quit the party. Now at one time there was a politician, a leader in India … he said I am quitting politics forever … said you are a coward, politics is a means to change society. How can you run away from it, a brave man never runs away he fights. My training is your cause your mission comes first, my family had joined me. In which Gandhi’s family always supported me, my wife supported me always, my whole family through my parents in my mission. I live for a mission. Every day I find there is a cause for which I exist and I live, I don’t live for the sake of fun and playing cards and wasting time. Only one life given to you, every day is passing, people forget this every day, it doesn’t come back, use it use it properly for yourself, doing good for society and everybody. It will never come back. And don’t be a coward to run away from politics use it for the betterment of society. That is my view.
5 March 2006